This page is dedicated to enlightening believers about why commonly claimed evidence for their god’s existence doesn’t actually demonstrate that a god exists, nor does it justify their beliefs at all.
Here is ones believer’s attempted rebuttal to much of this page. https://freeatheism.org/2017/01/07/7994/ Please note that she ignored all of my supporting articles & media while presenting fallacious & irrelevant responses. Here is where Matt Dillahunty hung up on her for the same reason I blocked her on twitter… she is incapable of recognizing her own fallacies… https://youtu.be/hmKTUOzXRkI
*Table of Contents*
- (1) “The Bible says so.”
- (A) Eye-witness accounts
- (B) Prophecy was fulfilled.
- (C) Water to wine, walking on water and the resurrection …
- (E) The bible is inerrant.
- (2) “The universe’s complexity, design & origin requirements,… “
- (A) Complexity of biology shows design (DNA & variation)…
- (B) The big bang needed a push from something beyond time and space.
- (C) Humans are designed perfectly, so there is a designer.
- (D) Everything… all of nature proves god exists.
- (E) The universe is finely tuned.
- (3) “Accepting this God, changed my life…”
- (A) Accepting Jesus fixed my life.
- (4) “Jesus existed historically and did great things including miracles.”
- (A) Jesus existed, therefore the bible is true.
- (B) Jesus’ miracles prove his divinity.
- (5) “The Quran notes advanced science, which proves Allah is real.”
- (A) The Quran & Hadith actually fail horribly
- (6) “Morality, love, hope, beauty and consciousness… God given things.”
- (A) … concepts of love, hope, beauty, …
- (B) This same applies to morality, hope, beauty and consciousness.
- (7) “The world, universe and humans are fine tuned to fit exactly where we are.”
- (A) The Earth is in a perfect spot, a perfect distance.. Too perfect..
- (B) Without the Moon & Jupiter’s gravity we wouldn’t exist…
- (C) The Earth environment is all too perfect for life, for it not to be designed.
- (D) The chances that all the exact events occurred… is beyond astronomical.
- (E) Teleological argument.
- (8) I have personally witnessed God (or his actions), experienced Him first hand.
- (A) God appeared before me. My testimony proves god.
- (B) I’ve witnessed a miraculous event after praying.
- (C) The supernatural is widely observed and documented, it proves God.
- (9) The Kalam Cosmological Argument proves God exist.
- (A) The KCA’s premises really don’t hold up.
- (B) Even if KCA’s did logically prove the universe has a cause, what is it?
- (10) The Fibonacci numbers & golden ration found in nature prove a god exists.
- (11) Near death experiences prove a soul, heaven & therefore God
(1) “The Bible says so.”
(A) Eye-witness accounts. The later Gospels copied each other (adding variation) and the first was written (decades after Jesus supposedly died) mostly as a story being told via hearsay, not as an eye witness account. The bible notes many folks that saw Jesus and his miracles, but none are verifiable beyond bible claims. Among the anonymous 500 seeing Jesus risen not one had their miraculous account recorded. No local historians or anyone else outside the bible narrative even noticed Jesus, or the eclipse or the dead rising from the graves. The bible stories could easily be fiction of its times… made up exactly as a fictional story is.
To modernize the bible’s witnesses, take alien abductees stories for example. They make extreme claims, often similar even, but they are dismissed out of hand as fiction, fraud or delusion. Such a response is CLEARLY the rational default to extraordinary claims, even though these eyewitnesses are alive and still claiming it! The bible’s witnesses stand FAR from the level of credibility of living alien witnesses, yet they are believed without question. Absurd. If you don’t believe thousands of living witnesses, its hardly valid to believe (often anonymous) ancient witnesses claiming magic & myth really happened.
(B) Prophecy was fulfilled. Much prophecy in the bible is unverifiable as fulfilled beyond the Bible’s claim. Prophecy being fulfilled could simply be writers looking at the Old Testament promises and writing a story to fulfill them. Further, the old prophecies could simply be attempted to be fulfilled by normal folks pretending to be the one destined to fulfill them. Other prophecies were extremely vague or simple leaving the door open for any number of interpretations. EVEN if an amazingly impossible prophecy was verified to have come to pass, there is no verifying that a divine intelligence or power played any part. It would be a mystery. This extensive dismantling of the prophecy claim details far more than I ever could:
(C) Water to wine, walking on water and the resurrection are unverifiable events, which have no verifiable cause. Even if there was a verifiable witness to such events (there are none), they become mysteries, which are not by default answered by divinity. This also applies to modern miracles, visions, experiences and prayers. They are beyond explanation, beyond inspection, beyond revealing a source. It is a mystery and mysteries do not equal “God did it”. If you were to see a vision of The Faerie King, experience a powerful feeling and miracle with it, does this prove the Faerie King is real? Of course not. The images and events could be caused by forces you can’t see. They could be anything and inserting you god myth as the cause is baseless & fallacious.
Further, an often ignored aspect of modern visions in modern humans is the conditioning people go through. Basically kids are brainwashed with stories & images for years and years, so its no wonder believers brains would show them visions of what has been drilled into their head. Our brains are perfectly capable of fear, guilt & stress based hallucinations, so such reported experiences aren’t proof of god.
Further refuting the resurrection:
(D) Historic accuracy proves the bible true. An accurate recounting of people, places and events is what makes fiction seem real. There’s no reason to believe the Bible writers didn’t just insert fictional people and events into their real background. Spiderman stories are written into existing city environments, using real people and places. This doesn’t prove Spiderman is real.
A more extensive explanation of this failed evidence claim:
(E) The bible is inerrant. Even the first sentence in the bible “In the beginning God created the heavens and the Earth” doesn’t match reality. Obviously, in the beginning the heavens (space and time) could be argued, but the Earth wasn’t formed for another 9 billion years (NOT remotely the beginning). Yup even the very first sentence of the Bible brings into question its validity as a whole. This is just the tip of a massive iceberg. There are many, many flaws, errors and contradictions in the bible (for a SHOCKINGLY LARGE list click HERE ) and many apologetics excusing them. Even the fact that seemingly endless apologist excuses are needed to explain such a flawed book, is a blatant admission of the books failings. An inerrant book wouldn’t need excuses or favorable reinterpretation, it would be clear. The kicker is that a flawed book couldn’t be the creation of a perfect being, since such a failure would make him CLEARLY IMPERFECT. There is no doubt that bible is simply man-made and that there is no such perfect God.
Indeed there are many errors as well as conflicts between the 66 books:
What about the bible being “infallible”:
A young atheist tearing apart a pastors claim of a perfect infallible bible:
(2) “The universe’s complexity, design & origin requirements, dictates a guiding hand is needed. “
(A) Complexity of biology shows design (DNA & variation) so it’s evidence of God. Nature, via evolution and natural forces, is perfectly capable of creating complex processes and systems. This is science’s current stance. If you wish to claim natural forces aren’t capable of this you need prove science wrong. Your claim and lack of understanding of nature’s potential doesn’t allow for any valid conclusion to be made for design. Even if we as humans couldn’t explain your complex biology examples, it becomes a mystery and mysteries don’t equal “god did it” by default. You would need to further demonstrate a link between this mystery of nature and your yet unproven god.
(B) The big bang needed a push from something beyond time and space. Perhaps that first singularity did need an “external” kick-off and maybe it didn’t. The laws of physics outside the universe are unknown and may themselves require something to exist instead of nothing. Its among the possible because we don’t know either way yet, since our science can’t observe that place or event. Believers often claim an uncaused cause had to start the ball rolling, which may be true, but claiming a yet unproven myth did it is an argument from ignorance. Your lack of imagination and information doesn’t mean you can default to your favorite myth to fill in the blank. Besides, you would need to disprove any natural uncaused causes, which may have been plentiful then. Or show that such a compressed source of energy (energy which may have always existed) wouldn’t have its own laws of physics directing it to expand upon reaching a critical mass. Or refute an eternal power slime, or the Faerie King or a million other imagined causes. Indeed such a mystery doesn’t prove your god exists. Not even close. The believer’s position of “You can’t explain the universe’s origins so my God is the answer.” or “What else could it be?” DOES NOT conclude they are right. Its a logically fallacious leap they make… end of story. The honest position is “We humans don’t know the cause, but there are thousands we can imagine and not hope to refute…. so I don’t pick one.”
As far as where the singularity came from, defaulting to a yet unproven magic god is a fallacious leap. Even if you did prove a god existed you would still have to prove s/he was the only possible cause. There is certainly no requirement that it be god, as long as the cause remains unknown. Perhaps the physics of nothingness dictates that something exist. Perhaps our universes energy is eternal in some form or another. Or maybe a rupture in another dimension or universe caused our universe. Or maybe eternal power slime did it. You can deny these ideas all you want but cant disprove them, so gods are CLEARLY not the default.
Here’s an interesting lecture by Stephen Hawking about time in the universe, which summarizes the No Boundary Hypothesis. It denotes the possibility and requirements of a self a starting universe. The hypothesis needs testing but the observed conditions in our universe meet the criteria. It will remain plausible until some aspect is disproven. Yup, no god needed!
(C) Humans are designed perfectly, so there is a designer. Humans have flaws and piss poor features, which are explained by evolution and not a perfect designer. http://m.nautil.us/issue/24/error/top-10-design-flaws-in-the-human-body
(D) Everything… all of nature proves god exists. Perhaps this is you looking at everything in awe and and not being able to understand how natural forces did all this. Or more likely since you have been told for so long that your god myth has done it all, your auto conclusion falls to “God did it”. Either way, there isn’t evidence by merely observing nature and pondering. Your interpretation of nature isn’t evidence but rather just your subjective opinion.
In your claim “The universe proves God”, nothing justifies the insertion of your favorite myth, …ANY imagined myth or cause fits too… including just ‘natural forces’. So “The universe proves The Faerie King” is equally as valid. Further, I could also say “The universe proves that nature makes universes” and its equally valid.. or more so, because natural forces are all that is evident as causes.
(E) The universe is fine tuned.
There is an argument that the universe and its conditions are so perfect that the likelihood it could exist is basically nil. That is unless a designer were there to tune it just right. Well, how many universes have been made? What if all possible universes might exist as a multiverse? Our universe would eventually exist too, and of course all existing universes would be equally unlikely, so its a non proof for a designer.
This fellow will say it better: https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=l5-ofKAtFEg
On another video (start at 3 min 50 sec) … the altering of the parameters of this universe wouldn’t necessarily produce a universe where life was impossible, though granted it will be notably different. Also a misunderstanding of the multiverse is explained.
During a T.E.D. Talk, the multiverse, string theory & apparent fine tuning all pulled together & explained.
(3) “Accepting this God, changed my life. It got me clean and on the straight and narrow.”
(A) Accepting Jesus fixed my life. Whether it be substance abuse, horrible habits or crime, finding a positive guide when you are at rock bottom can get you back up. When I was 8 my grandmother died. I imagined my stuffed animals were suffering too, and they helped me through it by talking to me and comforting me. The fact is any new thing to latch onto can be a crutch to help you continue. I dropped my crutch once i felt better, you didn’t. You traversing that harsh recovery doesn’t demonstrate a god, but rather trading an old dependence for a new one. Indeed getting clean can be done in many ways, none of which demonstrates the process to be more than an effective tool. It certainly doesn’t show a supernatural force at work.
This tesimony claim is argued further:
(4) “Jesus existed historically and did great things including miracles.”
(A) Jesus existed, therefore the bible is true. The divinity of Jesus is a myth, as its not proven to be fact either in the bible or by historians. He is not considered an historical figure as depicted in the bible, but rather some historians agree some ancient holy man (or men) might have been the basis for the bible stories.
Debunking any claim of Jesus historicity:
2 links speaking similarly on this:
(B) Jesus’ miracles prove his divinity. Nothing even close to evidence verifies his miracles to have ever happened. This can even be tested. Not one person noted or wrote down the 3 hour eclipse for example. Not one person noted the mass resurrection in town either! These are things any and all local historians (or anyone) would have documented. Its found nowhere but the story of Jesus, which makes other aspects of it VERY dubious. There’s no good reason to believe the whole death & resurrection event even happened beyond pure fiction. So citing the missing body as evidence is like saying Harry Potter’s missing body is evidence of his resurrection power… it happened in fiction only. Even if the miracles were sufficiently witnessed, they would be mysteries with no way to verify how they happened. Even if they were facts, they don’t demonstrate a divine cause of the event.
Further refuting the resurrection:
(5) “The Quran notes advanced science, which proves Allah is real.”
(A) The Quran & Hadith actually fail horribly at their scientific assertions. http://infidels.org/library/modern/denis_giron/islamsci.html
“Muslims cite alleged scientific miracles in the Qur’an and Hadiths to try and prove a divine origin of their faith. In this short study of Islamic science, these claims have been debunked. Clearly there was no supernatural force giving Muhammad scientific information. While the Muslims argued that advanced scientific knowledge in the Qur’an is a sign of divine origin, the rational thinker points out that the numerous and obvious scientific errors point to a wholly human origin.” (text from infidels.org)
Here is a video which Zakir Naik gets debunked while preaching his scientific claims in the Quran.
Another video explaining 7 reasons Islam is false.
(6) “Morality, love, hope, beauty and consciousness are only explainable as a God given things.”
(A) It’s interesting to note that many arguments or questions for the existence of God often used by Christians are concepts of love, hope, beauty, etc. as if those notions contain a definitive trump card explaining God. The same correlations they desire between God and love are also true of sadness, fear, hatred and other negative human emotions. It seems to me that since the New Testament insists (either nonsensically or pantheistically) that, “God is love,” Christians think that if they can prove that love can’t be proved but must exist, *somehow* God can’t be proved but he must exist. The logic in this assumption is obviously and horrendously flawed, but so many apologists who should know better, still use it! It reeks of intentional dishonesty.
Science tells us about “love” and while love can’t be precisely measured or even precisely defined, it is still a very real emotion created within the human brain. Feelings are electrochemical reactions in our brains arising from internal and/or external stimuli. Love and other emotions are clearly a function of the brain, despite some theistic claims of divinely caused emotions. To reinforce this fact, we know when you alter/damage the brain enough, emergent properties like love, personality & consciousness no longer function.
(B) This same understanding applies to morality, hope, beauty and consciousness. They’re all emergent properties of our brains. Whether or not you believe scientific conclusions noting how our brain evolved to have these functions, the fact is they rely on the brain and not an external source. The evidence is in observing a damaged or disfunctional brain, where these emergent properties are often compromised or completely missing.
(Insights in 6 A&B by @KaBrent )
(7) The world, universe and humans are fine tuned to fit exactly where we are.
(A) The Earth is in a perfect spot, a perfect distance from the sun for life. Too perfect to not be intentional. Yes Earth is one of countless planets in the universe which ended up with the right size to: hold gasses, have a liquid iron core & be the right temperature to have liquid water. Life arose because our planet eventually provided a viable environment, just like billions of others in the universe. This chance event is just chance, not evidence of the divine.
(B) Without the Moon & Jupiter’s gravity we wouldn’t exist and the probability of this is too extreme to not be designed. There could be millions & billions of viable life enabling solar system variations in existence. Further, it’s not as if moons or gas giants are rare. In fact they seem quite common, so citing intent from gods is baseless.
(C) The Earth environment is all too perfect for life, for it not to be designed. Actually, life adapted to the available environment. We (humans & life) evolved to survive on Earth. There is plenty if evidence for this & no evidence the world was made to fit us. Per the meme below, you are the puddle amazed at how everything fits you, but obviously you know full well, that’s not how it works.
But if you don’t grasp that life adopted to fit, let’s examine this finely tuned by design premise. The universe is so hostile to life that to think we humans got this far is amazing. If we leave this planet, we die instantly unless we take our atmosphere with us. Cosmic radiation is deadly. The Earth is quite hostile as well. Seventy-five percent of its surface is covered with water that we cannot drink because the salt content will kill us. If we venture into the ocean or lakes, we have to take our atmosphere there as well. Just swimming in the ocean is dangerous to us from predators. Tsunamis are a danger if we live near the coast. Earthquakes and volcanoes constantly threaten us. We can’t live at the poles because it’s much too cold for our frail bodies and no food grows there. That leaves about 20% of the land mass that’s accessible to us. Of that 20% there are mountains that are much too high to support our inefficient air intake system. And there are many desert areas that are much too hot for our inefficient cooling system. We must be very careful about the foods we eat because much of the plant life is poisonous. We must thoroughly clean our food to prevent the intake of bacteria. There are predators on the land that will kill us. We are constantly being threatened by viruses, bacteria and poisons.
*Here I will note the WATCHMAKER arguement, where typically the complexity of life is analogous to the complexity of a watch, which is designed. This argument has many flaws, most notably that nature is perfectly capable of such complex results and doesn’t require a designer. This video utterly wrecks it.
(D) The chances that all the exact events occurred, to end up with us, is beyond astronomical. This same absurd use of probability applies to everything. The rock in the garden for instance. The same mind boggling chance for us is nearly the same for the rock ending up where it did. The probability for this event is basically nill… so yes you can see this is a useless & improper use of probability. Our existence is from natural forces acting on nature, which always has a 1 in 1 chance. Things existing because they didn’t follow natural laws, would actually be have that astonomical chance.
A solid video debunking the argument from improbability.
(E) The above sections have dealt with specific elements agrued for design & probability. Following are refutations for the whole of the Teleological argument for God’s existence.
This video is a slam dunk in tearing apart the teleological argument. It leaves the argument easy to doubt after revealing all its failings:
(8) I have personally witnessed God (or his actions), experienced Him first hand.
(A) God appeared before me. My tesimony proves god. 1st, saying that you recognized somebody who no human could recognize suggests a manifistation from your own brain. Also, there are many thousands of alien abductees who claim first hand experience with aliens and because of this extreme claim, with only their story, it is dismissed. Why would god/jesus appearing to anyone hold more weight? Sheer numbers? Gods and dogma are drilled into heads through potent indoctrination. Further, believers are desperate to find him. Its not a stretch to believe the human brain could manifest such desired experiences, under sich conditions. And of course many such testimonies have been admitted fabrications and exaggerations. Yes, dishonesty and fraud is plausible too.
Now, let’s say all the biochemical, toxin, drug, bodily stress, dream state, NDE brain fart and seizure based hallucinations didn’t exist or weren’t the best conclusions here (they are). Further, let’s assume your experience/vision was very real with full sensory input… yes, it even spoke, was magical and recognizable! Great! Now what? You have to make sense of it, so to assess the cause you have to make assumptions. Why? You are merely a limited viewer… a spectator, and a biased one at that. You have no means to glimpse the source cause of the event. You will default to what you know and how you are conditioned to interpret sensory input.
The truth is that a tactile, auditory and magical experience with a mysterious man could have ANY imagined cause. Icelanders would say elves or faeries are playing tricks on you, while others would cite alien tests. How about eternal power slime? If you are skeptical and have integrity, the cause could truly be any imagined thing until proven. If you have chosen a cause, natural or otherwise, for any such visions, your conclusion is unjustified until you prove it. And no your testimony of such an unnatural and mysterious event doesnt somehow prove your believed cause is the real cause. Sorry, it only suggests that you in fact had an experience, which may well have been a seizure.
(B) I’ve witnessed a miraculous event after praying. And you’ve prayed thousands of times with no results… even the opposite result. You probably pray so often that there is always a chance for a coincidence. You ignore all the failures and recall the close coincidences. However, lets say something amazing and even miraculous happened, maybe right after a prayer. You still saw no god doing anything. What DID happen is you used your brain… you willed this event to happen. It is far more apt to investigate some kind of advanced brain ability than a myth who played no apparent part. Think about it.
This is explored further here:
(C) The supernatural is widely observed and documented, it proves God. Yes, strange events seem to happen. Call them ghosts, but that is presumptuous since we can’t observe their origin, just their effect. I’ve heard theories of it being some kind of natural recordings of traumatic moments of dying minds. Strange, sure, but so is the idea of a stuck soul, when there’s no evidence of a soul. Perhaps its a rift in time where our minds can interact with past or future minds. Stranger things have been claimed. The point is we can’t default to calling such mysteries an evidence of gods, when no logical or physical connection is made.
(9) The Kalam Cosmological Argument proves God exist.
(A) The KCA’s premises really don’t hold up. Its commits fallacies and has many issues along the way, just watch this extremely clear video: https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=64nZ1eVCvEM
Or read about it in detail: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Kal%C4%81m_cosmological_argument
(B) Even if KCA’s did logically prove the universe has a cause, what is it? Perhaps the physics of nothingness dictates that something must exist. Perhaps our universe’s energy is eternal in some form or another. Or maybe a rupture in another dimension or universe caused our universe. Or maybe timeless power slime did it. If you insist it must be some uncaused cause, you will need to show that uncaused causes weren’t both natural and plentiful before the universe. Good luck with that.
You can deny these ideas all you want but cant disprove them, so gods are CLEARLY not the default.
(10) The Fibonacci numbers & golden ration found in nature prove a god exists? No. These patterns (along with many other interesting ones) are simply naturally occuring. Also many of the claimed instances are inconsistent, distorted or even inaccurate.
11) “Near death experiences prove a soul, heaven & therefore God”. Hardly… Why are near death experiences (still living experiences) somehow pretended to demonstrate after death experiences? I could leave it there honestly and not be bothered further. Seriously… “Near death experiences prove after death claims” is a blatant non sequitur logical fallacy.
If anyone says science confirms that NDEs cannot be caused by the human brain, they are either misinformed or are intentionally deceiving you. Here is an informative video which depicts what science now knows about NDEs and all the reasearch source links used to make the video. https://youtu.be/HmO8l517TEg
I’m no expert in the science, but this refutation below exhaustively cites & examines where the divine claims concerning NDEs fail scrutiny. It goes through the most commonly cited NDE cases, showing why they aren’t evidence for souls and gods.
This refutation explains why NDEs can comfortably be dismissed as any kind of evidence for souls, the supernatural & gods. The explanations are natural and understandable after investigation. The ongoing research and reports by NDE “experts” are too often biased, misleading and cherry-picked, so the conclusions don’t always tell the whole story. Until you’ve read through the link above, don’t bother to argue this further, because your claims are addressed within. If you still aren’t satisfied because your objection isn’t explained away, it suffices to say its a mystery.. and a mystery does not equal “a soul did it” or “God did it”. Ever.
* END OF REFUTATION PAGE. ***
Ms. @SJThomason1225 from twitter has responded to my #TheistChallenge and this refutation page. Here is her and my rebuttal: https://freeatheism.org/2017/01/07/7994/
Its the most extensive effort in some time, but as it was filled with fallacies, faith & distortions (and no evidence), it fails. Believers are still unjustified in their belief, while atheists remain perfectly justified in not believing.
Thanks for visiting,