Explaining why your God evidence doesn’t demonstrate your god

This page is dedicated to enlightening believers about why their best evidence for their
god’s existence doesn’t justify their belief at all.

theist-challenge-org

(1) “The Bible or says so.”

(A)  Eye-witness accounts. The later Gospels copied each other (adding variation) and the first was written (decades after Jesus supposedly died) mostly as a story being told via hearsay, not as an eye witness account. The bible notes many folks that saw Jesus and his miracles, but none are verifiable beyond bible claims. Among the anonymous 500 seeing Jesus risen not one had their miraculous account recorded. No local historians or anyone else outside the bible narrative even noticed Jesus, or the eclipse or the dead rising from the graves.  The bible stories could easily be fiction of its times… made up exactly as a fictional story is.

(B)  Prophecy was fulfilled.  Much prophecy in the bible is unverifiable as fulfilled beyond the Bible’s claim. Prophecy being fulfilled could simply be writers looking at the Old Testament promises and writing a story to fulfill them.  Further, the old prophecies could simply be attempted to be fulfilled by normal folks pretending to be the one destined to fulfill them.  Other prophecies were extremely vague or simple leaving the door open for any number of interpretations.  EVEN if an amazingly impossible prophecy was verified to have come to pass, there is no verifying that a divine intelligence or power played any part. It would be a mystery.

(C)  Miracles in the Bible (and elsewhere).  Water to wine, walking on water and the resurrection are unverifiable stories. Even if there was a verifiable witness to such events, they become mysteries, which are not by default answered by divinity. This also applies to modern miracles, visions, experiences and prayers.  They are beyond explanation, beyond inspection, beyond revealing a source. It is a mystery and mysteries do not equal “God did it”.  If you were to see a vision of The Faerie King, experience a powerful feeling and miracle with it, does this prove the Faerie King is real?  Of course not.  The images and events could be caused by forces you can’t see.  They could be anything and inserting you god myth as the cause is baseless & fallacious. 

(D)  Historic accuracy proves the bible true.  An accurate recounting of people, places and events is what makes fiction seem real. There’s no reason to believe the Bible writers didn’t just insert fictional people and events into their real background.  Spiderman stories are written into existing city environments, using real people and places.  This doesn’t prove Spiderman is real.

(E)   The bible is inerrant.  The first sentence in the bible “In the beginning God created the heavens and the Earth” doesn’t match reality. In the beginning the heavens (space and time) could be argued, but the Earth wasn’t formed until another 9 billion years of stuff happening had passed (NOT remotely the beginning).  Yup the first sentence of the Bible brings into question its validity as a whole.  This is just the tip of a massive iceberg.  There are many flaws, errors and contradictions in the bible (a few examples HERE )  and many apologetics excusing them.  But the fact that seemingly endless excuses are needed to explain such a flawed book, means its far from perfect in many ways.  An inerrant book wouldn’t need excuses or favorable reinterpretation, it would be clear.

(2)   “The universe’s complexity, design & origin requirements,  dictates a guiding hand is needed. “

(A)    Complexity of biology shows design (DNA & variation) so it’s evidence of God.  Nature, via evolution and natural forces, is perfectly capable of creating complex processes and systems. This is science’s current stance.  If you wish to claim natural forces aren’t capable of this you need prove science wrong.  Your claim and lack of understanding of nature’s potential doesn’t allow for any valid conclusion to be made for design.  Even if we as humans couldn’t explain your complex biology examples, it becomes a mystery and mysteries don’t equal “god did it” by default. You would need to further demonstrate a link between this mystery of nature and your yet unproven god.

(B)  The big bang needed a push from something beyond time and space.  Perhaps that first singularity did need an “external” kick-off and maybe it didn’t.  We don’t know yet,  since our science can’t observe the event.  Believers often claim an uncaused cause had to start the ball rolling, which may be true, but claiming a yet unproven myth did it is an argument from ignorance.  Your lack of imagination and information doesn’t mean you can default to your favorite myth to fill in the blank.  Besides, you would need to disprove any natural uncaused causes, which may have been plentiful then.  Or show such a compressed source of energy (energy which may have always existed) wouldn’t have its own laws of physics directing it to expand upon reaching a critical mass.  Or refute omnipotent power slime, or the Faerie King or a million other imagined causes.  Indeed such a mystery doesn’t prove your god exists.  Not even close.

(C)  Humans are designed perfectly, so there is a designer.  Humans have flaws and piss poor features, which are explained by evolution and not a perfect designer.  http://m.nautil.us/issue/24/error/top-10-design-flaws-in-the-human-body

(D)   Everything… all of nature proves god exists.  Perhaps this is you looking at everything in awe and and not being able to understand how natural forces did all this. Or more likely since you have been told for so long tha your god myth has done it all, your auto conclusion fall to “God did it”.  Either way,  there isn’t evidence by merely observing nature and pondering.  Your interpretation of nature isn’t evidence but just your subjective opinion. 

(3)   “Accepting this God, changed my life. It got me clean and on the straight and narrow.”

(A)  Accepting Jesus fixed my life.   Whether it be substance abuse, horrible habits or crime, finding a positive guide when you are at rock bottom can get you back up.  When I was 8 my grandmother died.  I imagined my stuffed animals were suffering too, and they helped me through it by talking to me and comforting me.  The fact is any new thing to latch onto can be a crutch to help you continue.  I dropped my crutch once i felt better, you didn’t.  You traversing that harsh recovery doesn’t demonstrate a god, but rather trading an old dependence for a new one.  Indeed getting clean can be done in many ways, none of which demonstrates the process to be more than an effective tool.  It certainly doesn’t show a supernatural force at work.

(4)   “Jesus existed historically and did great things including miracles.”

(A)  Jesus existed, therefore the bible is true.  The divinity of Jesus is a myth, as its not proven to be fact either in the bible or by historians.  He is not considered an historical figure as depicted in the bible,  but rather some historians agree some ancient holy man (or men) might have been the basis for the bible stories.

(B)  Jesus’ miracles prove his divinity.  Nothing even close to evidence verifies his miracles to have ever happened.  This can even be tested. Not one person noted or wrote down the 3 hour eclipse for example. Not one person noted the mass resurrection in town either!  These are things any and all local historians (or anyone)  would have documented.  Its found nowhere but the story of Jesus,  which makes other aspects of it VERY dubious.  There’s no good reason to believe the whole death & resurrection event even happened beyond pure fiction.  So citing the missing body as evidence is like saying Harry Potter’s missing body is evidence of his resurrection power… it happened in fiction only.  Even if the miracles were sufficiently witnessed, they would be mysteries with no way to verify how they happened.  Even if they were facts, they don’t demonstrate a divine cause of the event.

(5)   “The Quran notes advanced science, which proves Allah is real.”

(A)  The Quran & Hadith actually fail horribly at their scientific assertions.  http://infidels.org/library/modern/denis_giron/islamsci.html

“Muslims cite alleged scientific miracles in the Qur’an and Hadiths to try and prove a divine origin of their faith. In this short study of Islamic science, these claims have been debunked. Clearly there was no supernatural force giving Muhammad scientific information. While the Muslims argued that advanced scientific knowledge in the Qur’an is a sign of divine origin, the rational thinker points out that the numerous and obvious scientific errors point to a wholly human origin.” (text from infidels.org)

Here is a video which Zakir Naik gets debunked while preaching his scientific claims in the Quran. 

Another video explaining 7 reasons Islam is false. 

(6)  “Morality, love, hope, beauty and consciousness are only explainable as a God given things.”

(A)  It’s interesting to note that many arguments or questions for the existence of God often used by Christians are concepts of love, hope, beauty, etc. as if those notions contain a definitive trump card explaining God. The same correlations they desire between God and love are also true of sadness, fear, hatred and other negative human emotions. It seems to me that since the New Testament insists (either nonsensically or pantheistically) that, “God is love,” Christians think that if they can prove that love can’t be proved but it must exist, *somehow* God can’t be proved but he must exist. The logic in this assumption is obviously and horrendously flawed, but so many apologists who should know better, still use it! It reeks of intentional dishonesty.

Science tells us about “love” and while love can’t be precisely measured or even precisely defined, it is still a very real emotion.  We know that love exists, not just because we can witness it ourselves and see it expressed, but we know what chemicals in the brain cause it.  Love is therefore clearly a function of the brain and has no external source.  If you alter the brain enough, emergent properties like love, no longer function. 

(B)  This same understanding applies to morality, hope, beauty and consciousness.  They’re all emergent properties of our brains.  Whether or not you believe scientific conclusions noting how our brain evolved to have these functions, the fact is they rely on the brain and not an external source.  The evidence is in observing a damaged or disfunctional brain, where these emergent properties are often compromised or completely missing.  

(Insights in 6 A&B by @KaBrent )

(7)  The world, universe and humans are fine tuned to fit exactly where we are.

(A) The Earth is in a perfect spot,  a perfect distance from the sun for life. Too perfect to not be intentional.  Yes Earth is one of countless planets in the universe which ended up with the right size to: hold gasses, have a liquid iron core & be the right temperature to have liquid water.  Life arose because our planet eventually provided a viable environment,  just like billions of others in the universe. This chance event is just chance, not evidence of the divine.

(B)   Without the Moon & Jupiter’s gravity we wouldn’t exist and the probability of this is too extreme to not be designed.  There could be millions & billions of viable life enabling solar system variations in existence. Further, it’s not as if moons or gas giants are rare. In fact they seem quite common, so citing intent from gods is baseless.

 (C)   The Earth environment is all too perfect for life, for it not to be designed.  Actually, life adapted to the available environment.  We (humans & life) evolved to survive on Earth.  There is plenty if evidence for this & no evidence the world was made to fit us.  Per the meme below,  you are the puddle amazed at how everything fits you,  but obviously you know full well,  that’s not how it works.

(D)   The chances that all the exact events occurred, to end up with us, is beyond astronomical.   This same absurd use of probability applies to everything.  The rock in the garden for instance.   The same mind boggling chance for us is nearly the same for the rock ending up where it did.  The probability for this event is basically nill… so yes you can see this is a useless & improper use of probability.  Our existence is from natural forces acting on nature, which always has a 1 in 1 chance.  Things existing because they didn’t follow natural laws, would actually be have that astonomical chance. 

(8)  I have personally witnessed God, experienced Him first hand.

(A)  God appeared before me. My tesimony proves god.   Saying that you recognized somebody who no human could recognize suggests a manifistation from your own brain.  Also, there are many thousands of alien abductees who claim first hand experience with aliens and because of this extreme claim,  with only their story, it is dismissed.  Why would god/jesus appearing to anyone hold more weight?  Sheer numbers?  Gods and dogma are drilled into heads through potent indoctrination.  Believers are desperate to find him.  Its not a stretch to believe the human brain could manifest such desired experiences. 

(B)  I’ve witnessed a miraculous event after praying.  And you’ve prayed thousands of times with no results… even the opposite result.  You probably pray so often that there is always a chance for a coincidence. You ignore all the failures and recall the close coincidences.   However,  lets say something amazing and even miraculous happened right after a prayer. You still saw no god doing anything.  What DID happen is you used your brain… you willed this event to happen.  It is far more apt to investigate some kind of advanced brain ability than a myth who played no apparent part.  Think about it.  

(9) 

 

 

Advertisements

10 thoughts on “Explaining why your God evidence doesn’t demonstrate your god

  1. Atheism isn’t simply “not believing” and your pathetic movement-Atheist attempt to coopt Agnosticism is just silly. Be bold and embrace atheism or be honest and admit agnosticism, but don’t just pretend they’re the same thing.

    • Your attempt to redefine atheism won’t change what it is. Atheism is not holding God beliefs. It can ALSO be one saying and believing Gods dont exist, or some gods dont exist. It is both. Agnostics declare they don’t KNOW and dont think we can. So atheism and agnostic can coexist and not conflict. Im sorry you don’t like that atheism is the justified position, but redefining won’t change that. Grow up.

    • Not believing in gods is a definition of atheism. Most theists and atheists don’t claim to know for sure there is or isn’t a god. So if we take you definition most believers aren’t believers, but agnostics. Pure stupidity. Thanks for sharing.

  2. To say that no local historian has written to prove the truth of Jesus just shows how unresearched and ignorant this work is. Read about the letter of Pilate, Josephus, Tacitus just go and read.

    • There may have lived a Jesus type fellow/criminal/preacher at the time which were the source of some stories… doesn’t mean in the slightest he was divine of filled prophesy. Sorry.

  3. If you think just fitting into any window of prophecy is quite easy, go check out the predictions of your own, Nostradamus and see how many you can make good with your own life story.

  4. “The heavens (space and time) could be argued but the earth was formed 9 billions years later” (you say) When you open a bible and see “In the beginning” is that a specific time frame? Did you bother to ask, the beginning of what? Do you have to be told that it is a book of the generations of man and all there is in relation to that? Is it unclear or do you just choose to be without understanding that the earth itself is a part of “The heavens” (heavenly bodies) isn’t it in space & time? And the zooming in on it, is because the revelation of scripture is to the beings on earth (as a specific location). Of course there’s so much more but what the bible gives info about is concerning how it is directly linked to us… If you need a sound teacher about any of the things you stated you should ask in quietness and you’d be taught privately, not to expose yourself here.

    Everytime I see an Atheist article I expect to be challenged in my knowledge and understanding of my faith (perhaps help me to seek better understanding of God) but I keep encountering ignorance and people who haven’t learned enough to dispute truth. You guys continue to prove the truth of God, and don’t even know it Haha!!!

    • The heavens and earth are noted seperately and they were supposedly made together. In reality the werent. You are desperate to reinterpret what is said. The bible is in gross error in the first sentence. Fact.

  5. Was it coincidence that I prayed for a cancer patient and God healed him completely. If some prayers are not answered the way we want, does it mean God is not real? even when he eventually gave the better I did not know was possible. Does this not show rather that I’m actually praying to an Intellectual being who is not controlled by words but moves by His own wisdom and love. Who takes the same route to a destination everytime? especially when there are better ones made? So is God unreal for not taking one route all the time when His end results stay true and lovely… I’m tired of doing this. Please genuinely seek God and I guarantee you that you will find him if you seek him with all your heart first; your spites are only destroying you they don’t weaken him. He knows the pain you’re speaking from and loves you but you can’t see clearly if you keep your eyes blurred with tears. Come to Him he would show you why you’ve been through all you’ve been through. Don’t be deceived to think you’re exhibiting wisdom with these things here haha!! No it isn’t. (Although I speak this way, I have nothing against you but I truly hope you let God reach you).

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s