Is a Sin Always Immoral? 

The point I like to make is that God punishes (eternal torture) for many sins which are not even immoral or criminal.  Most sins are actually just things God doesn’t like (arguably not immoral), yet He is prepared to punish anyone for committing them.  My go to example sin is non-belief in God, or atheism.  Yes, simple, non-criminal, non-immoral, justified non-belief is enough to get you tossed into hellfire forever.  An unwarranted punishment by any standard.  Actually, punishment of any kind for most of the sins God dislikes is a GROSS overstep of ANY authority.  The threat of such unwarranted punishment is blatantly immoral, criminal, tyrannical coercion.  It is the Mob Boss maiming you for not wanting to pay his “protection” fee.  The believer is conditioned to argue that nonbelievers are choosing hell, but this equates to the Mob Boss victim choosing to make the Boss punish unjustly.  Yes, the Mob Boss (God) is the one acting unjustly and immorally.  Nobody is making him punish unjustly except God himself.  And no Mr believer, God’s supposed authority as a powerful creator doesn’t override any such immorality… unjust punishment is unjust punishment.  Yes, your God is an immoral monster and you the blind believer excuse his actions.

Below are about one quarter of the bible sins listed  on amazingbible.org.  I used the 1st page to make a point.  I went through and noted any sin that truly seems immoral and potentially immoral, as well as those that didn’t.  (Immoral meaning: outside society’s standards of acceptable, honest behavior, which may cause harm to others.)  You might disagree with some, but only about 25% of what God tortures for could arguably warrant any punishment at all.  The fact that they are ALL punishable by a higher power shows without a doubt that God is a tyrannical dictator. (Tyrannical:  unjustly cruel, harsh, or severe; arbitrary or oppressive; despotic)  There really is no doubt.

To use this realization further, A tyrant is anything but all loving (or even a little loving) and this contradiction in the biblical God proves that this God can’t exist as claimed.  Atheism is the justified position already, but absurdities like this make it that much easier to see.

1.

ABORTION – potentially immoral (debatable)

  Ex 21:22-25; Jere 1:4,5
2.

NOT ABSTAINING FROM ALL APPEARANCE OF EVIL –  not immoral

  1 Thes 5:22
3.

ACCUSING – potentially immoral (debatable)

  Jude 9; 2 Pe 2:11
4.

NOT ACKNOWLEDGING THINE INIQUITY –  potentially immoral (debatable)

  Jere 3:13
5.

ADULTERY  –  immoral

  Mt 19:18; Gen 39:7-9; Ex 20:14
 

    Penalty for both involved is death

  Deut 22:22; Lev 20:10-12
 

    To look on a woman to lust is adultery

  Mt 5:28; 2 Pe 2:14
6.

AFRAID of people or circumstances –  not immoral

  Ps 112:7
7.

AFRAID TO CONFESS JESUS TO PEOPLE –  not immoral

  Jn 12:42
8.


UNJUSTIFIED ANGER (WRATHS) –  not immoral


  Pv 27:4; 29:22; Ex 6:9; 2 Cor 12:20
9.

ANGRY WITH YOUR BROTHER –  not immoral

  Mt 5:22
10.

ANXIOUS –  not immoral

  Phili 4:6 NIV
11.


ARGUING –  not immoral


  Pv 17:14; 18:6; Titus 3:9; 2 Tim 2:23
12.


ARROGANCE (SWELLINGS) (PROUD) –  not immoral


  Mk 7:22 NIV; Isa 2:17,11 NIV; Ro 1:30; 2 Cor 11:20; Isa 13:11
13.

ASHAMED, HIDING YOUR LIGHT FOR JESUS –  not immoral

  Mt 5:14-16; Lk 9:26; Ro 10:11
14.

ASHAMED OF JESUS AND HIS WORDS –  not immoral

  Mk 8:38
15.

ASSAULT –  immoral

  Ex 21:18,19; Acts 14:5
16.


ASTROLOGY –  not immoral


  Deut 4:19; 17:3-7; Isa 47:13,14; Acts 7:42; Ezek 8:16

    Penalty for astrology is death

  Deut 17:7
17.

VAIN BABBLINGS –  not immoral

  1 Tim 6:20; 2 Tim 2:16
18.

BACKBITING –   immoral

  Ps 15:1-3
19.

REFUSED TO BE BAPTIZED –  not immoral

  Lk 7:29,30
20.

BAPTIZED BEFORE BELIEVING ON JESUS –  not immoral

  Acts 8:36,37
21.

NOT BELIEVING ON NAME OF HIS SON JESUS CHRIST –  not immoral

  1 Jn 3:23

BIBLE-SEE THE HEADING OF“WORD”

   
22.


BITTERNESS –  not immoral


  Acts 8:23; Ro 3:14; Eph 4:31; Heb 12:15
23.

BLASPHEMOUS –  not immoral

  Mk 7:22; Jude 10
24.

BLASPHEMY AGAINST THE HOLY GHOST –  not immoral

  Mk 3:29; Lk 12:10
 

    Never forgiven, the unforgivable sin

  Mt 12:31
25.

NOT BLESSING THEM THAT CURSE YOU –  not immoral

  Lk 6:28
26.

NOT BLESSING THEM WHICH PERSECUTE YOU –  not immoral

  Ro 12:14
27.


A PERSON THAT LEADS THEBLIND ASTRAY –   immoral

  Deut 27:18; Mt 23:16


28.

EATING BLOOD –  not immoral

  1Sam 14:33
29.

BOASTING IS EVIL –  not immoral

  Ja 4:16; 3:5; Ro 1:30
 


BORN AGAIN-A PERSON THAT HAS BEEN CONVERTED FROM THE OLD SINFUL NATURE TO A SPIRIT LED NATURE THROUGH JESUS CHRIST. HE HAS RECEIVED THE INDWELLING OF GOD’S SPIRIT AND HAS BECOME A CHANGED PERSON. HE HAS BECOME A CHILD OF GOD.

  (Mt 18:3; Mk 16:16; Jn 3:3; Acts 2:38; Ro ch 6 and 8; Col 2:12; Heb 5:9; 1Jn 5:8).


(SINS AGAINST BORN-AGAIN CHILDREN OF GOD) 30 to 55

30.

BEING AGAINST A CHILD OF GOD –  not immoral

  Ps 11:2
31.

CAUSING A CHILD OF GOD TO SIN (GREAT SIN) – potentially immoral (depends on the sin)

  Mt 18:6
32.

DECEIVING A CHILD OF GOD – potentially immoral (debatable)

  Eph 4:14
33.

DESPISING ONE OF GOD’S CHILDREN –  not immoral

  Mt 18:10
 

    Is the same as despising God –  not immoral

  Lk 10:16
34.


ENTICING A CHILD OF GOD TO TURN –  not immoral


  Deut 13:6-10; Acts 13:8-12; Acts 20:29-31
 

    Penalty for enticing a child of God is death

  Deut 13:6-10
35.


ENTICING A CHILD OF GOD THROUGH THEIR LUSTS
AND DESIRES –  not immoral

  2 Pe 2:18


36.

HINDERING OR BEATING GOD’S SERVANTS –   immoral

  Lk 12:45
37.

JUDGING GOD’S SERVANTS –  not immoral

  Ro 14:4,10
38.

LAYING IN WAIT TO ACCUSE GOD’S SERVANTS –  not immoral

  Lk 11:54
39.

NOT CLOTHING GOD’S CHILDREN THAT HAVE NEED – potentially immoral (debatable)

  Mt 25:43
40.

NOT FEEDING GOD’S CHILDREN THAT ARE HUNGRY – potentially immoral (debatable)

  Mt 25:42
41.

NOT RECEIVING A CHILD OF GOD SENT BY GOD –  not immoral

  Mk 6:11; Mt 10:14
42.

NOT TAKING IN A HOMELESS CHILD OF GOD – potentially immoral (debatable)

  Mt 25:43,45; 1 Tim 5:10
43.

NOT VISITING GOD’S CHILDREN THAT ARE SICK –  not immoral

  Mt 25:43
44.

NOT VISITING GOD’S CHILDREN IN PRISON –  not immoral

  Mt 25:43
45.

OFFENDING A CHILD OF GOD –  not immoral

  Mk 9:42
46.

PERSECUTING A CHILD OF GOD-   immoral

  Acts 9:1,4,5
47.


PUTTING STUMBLING BLOCKS IN PATH OF GOD’S CHILDREN – potentially immoral (debatable)

  Acts 15:1,2; Ro 14:13


48.

REFUSING TO HEAR GOD’S SERVANTS –  not immoral

  1 Jn 4:6
49.


SPEAKING AGAINST GOD’S CHILDREN –  not immoral


  Acts 21:28; Num 14:2,3,11; 16:3
50.

SMITING GOD’S CHILDREN –   immoral

  Mt 24:49
51.

SOWING ANY FORM OF DISCORD AMONG GOD’S CHILDREN – potentially immoral (debatable)

  Pv 6:16,19
52.

THINKING EVIL IN YOUR HEART AGAINST GOD’S CHILDREN –  not immoral

  Mt 9:4
53.

THREATENING GOD’S PEOPLE –  immoral

  Acts 9:1,4,5; Jn 9:22,28,34
54.

TOUCHING GOD’S SERVANTS –  not immoral

  Acts 5:18,35,39
55.

ZEALOUS FOR GOD BUT HATE GOD’S CHILDREN –  not immoral

  Acts 22:3,22
56.

BREAKING UP HOMES – potentially immoral (debatable)

  Mt 19:6; 5:31,32
57.

ACCEPTING A BRIBE –  immoral

  Ex 23:8; Ps 26:10
58.

BUSYBODIES (meddling)- potentially immoral (debatable)

  Pv 20:3; 1 Tim 5:13
59.

PUTTING CARES OF THIS WORLD BEFORE GOD –  not immoral

  Mk 4:19; Lk 8:14; 21:34
60.

BEING CARNAL OR WORLDLY –  not immoral

  1 Cor 3:1-3; Ro 8:6-8
61.

NOT HAVING CHARITY –  not immoral

  1 Cor 13:2
62.

NOT ENDURING GOD’SCHASTENING –  not immoral

  Heb 12:7,8
63.


NOT BECOMING AS A LITTLECHILD BEFORE GOD (NOT HUMBLING YOURSELF) –  not immoral

  Mt 18:3


64.

NOT SPANKING A DISOBEDIENTCHILD –  not immoral

  Pv 13:24
65.

FATHER’S PROVOKING THEIRCHILDREN TO WRATH –  immoral

  Eph 6:4
66.


NOT BRINGING CHILDREN UP IN TRAINING AND INSTRUCTION OF THE LORD –  not immoral

  Eph 6:4 NIV


CHRISTIAN-SEE BORN-AGAIN

 
67.


NOT GOING TO CHURCH OR ASSEMBLING TOGETHER –  not immoral


  Heb 10:25; Acts 2:46;
Ecc 4:9-12
68.

GOING TO THE CHURCH OF THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS –  not immoral

  Rev 17:5; 18:4,5

(SINS PERTAINING TO CLOTHING) 69 to 74

69.

WEARING THE CLOTHING OF THE OPPOSITE SEX –  not immoral

  Deut 22:5
70.

DRESSING INDECENTLY –  not immoral

  1 Tim 2:9; Pv 7:10
71.


LOVE FANCY CLOTHING TO SHOW OFF-TO BE ADMIRED BY MEN –  not immoral

  Mk 12:38


72.


WOMEN-BEAUTY THAT COMES FROM WEARING GOLD JEWELRY –  not immoral

  1 Pe 3:3


73.

WOMEN-THAT DO NOT DRESS MODESTLY –  not immoral

  1 Tim 2:9
74.


WOMEN-THAT ADORN THEMSELVES WITH GOLD, PEARLS, COSTLY ARRAY –  not immoral

  1 Tim 2:9


75.

DISOBEYING GOD’SCOMMANDMENTS –  potentially immoral (depends on the command)

  1 Jn 2:3
76.

TAKE COMMUNION BUT HAVE SIN IN YOUR LIFE (CURSED) –  not immoral

  1 Cor 11:29,30
77.

NOT HAVING COMPASSION –  not immoral

  1 Pe 3:8
78.

COMPLAINERS –  not immoral

  Jude 16
79.

COMPLAINING ABOUT HARDSHIPS –  not immoral

  Num 11:1 NIV
80.

COMPLAINING ABOUT WHAT YOU DO NOT HAVE –  not immoral

  Num 11:4-6; 21:5
81.

CONCEITED (PRIDE) –  not immoral

  1 Tim 3:6; 2 Tim 3:2,4
82.

CONDEMNING –  not immoral

  Lk 6:37
83.

CONDEMNS GOD –  not immoral

  Ps 10:13
84.

CONTEMPT –  not immoral

  Pv 23:22; Mt 18:10; Ro 14:3
85.

NOT BEING CONTENT WITH WHAT YOU HAVE –  not immoral

  Heb 13:5

(SINS PERTAINING TO CONVERSATION) 86 TO 111

86.

SPEAKING BOASTFUL WORDS –  not immoral

  2 Pe 2:18 NIV
87.

NOT BRIDLING (keeping a tight rein) HIS TONGUE –  not immoral

  Ja 1:26

CONVERSATION-ALSO SEE TONGUE

 
88.


CONVERSATION THAT DOES NOT BECOME JESUS –  not immoral
(THE GOSPEL)

  Phili 1:27


89.

CONVERSATION ACCORDING TO THE DECEITFUL LUSTS – potentially immoral (debatable)

  Eph 4:22
90.

CORRUPT CONVERSATION – potentially immoral (debatable)

  Eph 4:29
91.

COVETOUSNESS CONVERSATION –  not immoral

  Heb 13:5
92.

CRAFTY CONVERSATION –  not immoral

  Job 15: 4-6
93.

DOUBLE-TONGUED – potentially immoral (debatable)

  1 Tim 3:8
94.

SPEAKING EVIL ABOUT GOD’S WORD – potentially immoral (debatable)

  Acts 19:9
95.

SPEAKING ABOUT OTHER PEOPLE’S EVIL –  not immoral

  Eph 5:11,12
96.

SPEAKING EVIL OF BROTHERS (ONE OF ANOTHER) – potentially immoral (depends on the ‘evil’)

  Ja 4:11
97.

SPEAKING EVIL OF DIGNITIES – potentially immoral (depends on the ‘evil’)

  Jude 8
98.

SPEAKING EVIL OR GUILE – potentially immoral (depends on the ‘evil’)

  1Pe 2:1; 3:10; Ps 34:13
99.

FILTHY CONVERSATION –  not immoral

  Col 3:8
100.

FOOLISH CONVERSATION –  not immoral

  Eph 5:4
101.

BIDDING GOD SPEED TO CHRIST REJECTING PEOPLE –  not immoral

  2 Jn 11
102.

HASTY IN WORDS –  not immoral

  Pv 29:20
103.

NOT BEING SLOW TO SPEAK –  not immoral

  Ja 1:19
104.

NOT BEING MEEK AND QUIET –  not immoral

  1 Pe 3:4
 

    Every idle word…they shall give account thereof

  Mt 12:36
105.

PROUD SPEECH –  not immoral

  Ps 17:10
106.

SPEAKING THINGS THEY OUGHT NOT –  not immoral

  1 Tim 5:13
107.

TURNING TO VAIN JANGLING (MEANINGLESS TALK) –  not immoral

  1 Tim 1:6
108.

PARTAKING OF VAIN WORDS –  not immoral

  Eph 5:6,7; Jonah 2:8
109.

SAYING I WILL GO, I WILL BUY, BUT NOT IF GOD WILL –  not immoral

  Ja 4:13-17
110.

PROFESSING TO BE WISE (PRIDE) –  not immoral

  Ro 1:22
111.

BEING INVOLVED IN WIVE’S FABLES –  not immoral

  1 Tim 4:7
112.

CONTENTION (STRIFE) – potentially immoral (debatable)

  Pv 17:14
113.

NOT BEING CONVERTED-PERISH –  not immoral

  Mt 18:3
114.

DESPISING CORRECTION –  not immoral

  Heb 12:5
115.

REFUSING CORRECTION-PERISH –  not immoral

  Jere 5:3,4
116.

REFUSING TO SEPARATE FROM FALSE COUNSEL –  not immoral

  Pv 19:27
117.

SEEKING COUNSEL THAT IS NOT OF GOD –  not immoral

  Isa 30:1
118.

TURNING TO FALSE COUNSEL(FABLES) –  not immoral

  2 Tim 4:4
119.

WALKING IN COUNSEL OF UNSAVED –  not immoral

  Ps 1:1
 

    The advice of the unsaved is deceitful

  Pv 12:5
120.

NOT BEING COURTEOUS –  not immoral

  1 Pe 3:8
121.


COVETOUSNESS-AN INSATIABLE DESIRE FOR WORLDLY GAIN –  not immoral

  Hab 2:9


122.

COVETOUSNESS-DESIRE NEIGHBOR’S THINGS –  not immoral

  Mk 7:22; Ex 20:17; Ezek 33:31
 

    Covetousness is idolatry

  Col 3:5; Eph 5:5
123.

CRAFTINESS –  not immoral

  2 Cor 4:2
124.


BIDDING CULTS, GOD SPEED OR WELCOMING THEM INTO YOUR HOUSE –  not immoral

  2 Jn 10,11


125.

CURSING –  not immoral

  Ro 3:14; Ps 10:7; 59:12
126.

CURSING THE LORD’S NAME –  not immoral

  Ex 20:7
 

    Penalty for cursing the Lord’s name is death

  Lev 24:16
127.

CURSING THE RICH –  not immoral

  Ecc 10:20
128.

CURSING MEN –  not immoral

  Ja 3:9
129.

DEBATE –  not immoral

  Ro 1:29
130.

MAKING BAD DEBTS –  immoral

  Ro 13:8
131.

NOT PAYING WHAT YOU OWE (DEBTS) –  immoral

  Mt 5:26
132.

HOLDING FAST TO DECEIT(LIGHT IN YOU IS DARKNESS) –  immoral

  Jere 8:5; Mk 7:22
133.

WORKING DECEIT –  immoral

  Ps 101:7; 10:7; 35:20
134.

DECEITFUL – potentially immoral (debatable)

  2 Cor 11:13; Ro 1:29
135.

DECEIVING YOUR NEIGHBOR – potentially immoral (debatable)

  Jere 9:5,6
136.

DEFRAUDING OTHERS –  immoral

  Lev 19:13; 1 Thes 4:6
137.

NOT DELIGHTING YOURSELF IN THE LORD –  not immoral

  Ps 37:4
138.

DESIRE SINFUL WAYS – potentially immoral (depends on the sin)

  Lk 5:39
139.

DESPISING –  not immoral

  1 Thes 4:8
140.

DESPISING DOMINION (AUTHORITY) –  not immoral

  Jude 8
141.

DESPISING GOD’S SERVANTS –  not immoral

  Lk 10:16

chart source:  http://www.amazingbible.org/Documents/Bible_Studies/Sin_list_part_6.htm

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Explaining why your God evidence doesn’t demonstrate your god

This page is dedicated to enlightening believers about why their best evidence for their
god’s existence doesn’t justify their belief at all.

theist-challenge-org

(1) “The Bible or says so.”

(A)  Eye-witness accounts. The later Gospels copied each other (adding variation) and the first was written (decades after Jesus supposedly died) mostly as a story being told via hearsay, not as an eye witness account. The bible notes many folks that saw Jesus and his miracles, but none are verifiable beyond bible claims. Among the anonymous 500 seeing Jesus risen not one had their miraculous account recorded. No local historians or anyone else outside the bible narrative even noticed Jesus, or the eclipse or the dead rising from the graves.  The bible stories could easily be fiction of its times… made up exactly as a fictional story is.

(B)  Prophecy was fulfilled.  Much prophecy in the bible is unverifiable as fulfilled beyond the Bible’s claim. Prophecy being fulfilled could simply be writers looking at the Old Testament promises and writing a story to fulfill them.  Further, the old prophecies could simply be attempted to be fulfilled by normal folks pretending to be the one destined to fulfill them.  Other prophecies were extremely vague or simple leaving the door open for any number of interpretations.  EVEN if an amazingly impossible prophecy was verified to have come to pass, there is no verifying that a divine intelligence or power played any part. It would be a mystery.

(C)  Miracles in the Bible (and elsewhere).  Water to wine, walking on water and the resurrection are unverifiable stories. Even if there was a verifiable witness to such events, they become mysteries, which are not by default answered by divinity. This also applies to modern miracles, visions, experiences and prayers.  They are beyond explanation, beyond inspection, beyond revealing a source. It is a mystery and mysteries do not equal “God did it”.  If you were to see a vision of The Faerie King, experience a powerful feeling and miracle with it, does this prove the Faerie King is real?  Of course not.  The images and events could be caused by forces you can’t see.  They could be anything and inserting you god myth as the cause is baseless & fallacious. 

(D)  Historic accuracy proves the bible true.  An accurate recounting of people, places and events is what makes fiction seem real. There’s no reason to believe the Bible writers didn’t just insert fictional people and events into their real background.  Spiderman stories are written into existing city environments, using real people and places.  This doesn’t prove Spiderman is real.

(E)   The bible is inerrant.  The first sentence in the bible “In the beginning God created the heavens and the Earth” doesn’t match reality. In the beginning the heavens (space and time) could be argued, but the Earth wasn’t formed until another 9 billion years of stuff happening had passed (NOT remotely the beginning).  Yup the first sentence of the Bible brings into question its validity as a whole.  This is just the tip of a massive iceberg.  There are many flaws, errors and contradictions in the bible (a few examples HERE )  and many apologetics excusing them.  But the fact that seemingly endless excuses are needed to explain such a flawed book, means its far from perfect in many ways.  An inerrant book wouldn’t need excuses or favorable reinterpretation, it would be clear.

(2)   “The universe’s complexity, design & origin requirements,  dictates a guiding hand is needed. “

(A)    Complexity of biology shows design (DNA & variation) so it’s evidence of God.  Nature, via evolution and natural forces, is perfectly capable of creating complex processes and systems. This is science’s current stance.  If you wish to claim natural forces aren’t capable of this you need prove science wrong.  Your claim and lack of understanding of nature’s potential doesn’t allow for any valid conclusion to be made for design.  Even if we as humans couldn’t explain your complex biology examples, it becomes a mystery and mysteries don’t equal “god did it” by default. You would need to further demonstrate a link between this mystery of nature and your yet unproven god.

(B)  The big bang needed a push from something beyond time and space.  Perhaps that first singularity did need an “external” kick-off and maybe it didn’t.  We don’t know yet,  since our science can’t observe the event.  Believers often claim an uncaused cause had to start the ball rolling, which may be true, but claiming a yet unproven myth did it is an argument from ignorance.  Your lack of imagination and information doesn’t mean you can default to your favorite myth to fill in the blank.  Besides, you would need to disprove any natural uncaused causes, which may have been plentiful then.  Or show such a compressed source of energy (energy which may have always existed) wouldn’t have its own laws of physics directing it to expand upon reaching a critical mass.  Or refute omnipotent power slime, or the Faerie King or a million other imagined causes.  Indeed such a mystery doesn’t prove your god exists.  Not even close.

(C)  Humans are designed perfectly, so there is a designer.  Humans have flaws and piss poor features, which are explained by evolution and not a perfect designer.  http://m.nautil.us/issue/24/error/top-10-design-flaws-in-the-human-body

(D)   Everything… all of nature proves god exists.  Perhaps this is you looking at everything in awe and and not being able to understand how natural forces did all this. Or more likely since you have been told for so long tha your god myth has done it all, your auto conclusion fall to “God did it”.  Either way,  there isn’t evidence by merely observing nature and pondering.  Your interpretation of nature isn’t evidence but just your subjective opinion. 

(3)   “Accepting this God, changed my life. It got me clean and on the straight and narrow.”

(A)  Accepting Jesus fixed my life.   Whether it be substance abuse, horrible habits or crime, finding a positive guide when you are at rock bottom can get you back up.  When I was 8 my grandmother died.  I imagined my stuffed animals were suffering too, and they helped me through it by talking to me and comforting me.  The fact is any new thing to latch onto can be a crutch to help you continue.  I dropped my crutch once i felt better, you didn’t.  You traversing that harsh recovery doesn’t demonstrate a god, but rather trading an old dependence for a new one.  Indeed getting clean can be done in many ways, none of which demonstrates the process to be more than an effective tool.  It certainly doesn’t show a supernatural force at work.

(4)   “Jesus existed historically and did great things including miracles.”

(A)  Jesus existed, therefore the bible is true.  The divinity of Jesus is a myth, as its not proven to be fact either in the bible or by historians.  He is not considered an historical figure as depicted in the bible,  but rather some historians agree some ancient holy man (or men) might have been the basis for the bible stories.

(B)  Jesus’ miracles prove his divinity.  Nothing even close to evidence verifies his miracles to have ever happened.  This can even be tested. Not one person noted or wrote down the 3 hour eclipse for example. Not one person noted the mass resurrection in town either!  These are things any and all local historians (or anyone)  would have documented.  Its found nowhere but the story of Jesus,  which makes other aspects of it VERY dubious.  There’s no good reason to believe the whole death & resurrection event even happened beyond pure fiction.  So citing the missing body as evidence is like saying Harry Potter’s missing body is evidence of his resurrection power… it happened in fiction only.  Even if the miracles were sufficiently witnessed, they would be mysteries with no way to verify how they happened.  Even if they were facts, they don’t demonstrate a divine cause of the event.

(5)   “The Quran notes advanced science, which proves Allah is real.”

(A)  The Quran & Hadith actually fail horribly at their scientific assertions.  http://infidels.org/library/modern/denis_giron/islamsci.html

“Muslims cite alleged scientific miracles in the Qur’an and Hadiths to try and prove a divine origin of their faith. In this short study of Islamic science, these claims have been debunked. Clearly there was no supernatural force giving Muhammad scientific information. While the Muslims argued that advanced scientific knowledge in the Qur’an is a sign of divine origin, the rational thinker points out that the numerous and obvious scientific errors point to a wholly human origin.” (text from infidels.org)

Here is a video which Zakir Naik gets debunked while preaching his scientific claims in the Quran. 

Another video explaining 7 reasons Islam is false. 

(6)  “Morality, love, hope, beauty and consciousness are only explainable as a God given things.”

(A)  It’s interesting to note that many arguments or questions for the existence of God often used by Christians are concepts of love, hope, beauty, etc. as if those notions contain a definitive trump card explaining God. The same correlations they desire between God and love are also true of sadness, fear, hatred and other negative human emotions. It seems to me that since the New Testament insists (either nonsensically or pantheistically) that, “God is love,” Christians think that if they can prove that love can’t be proved but it must exist, *somehow* God can’t be proved but he must exist. The logic in this assumption is obviously and horrendously flawed, but so many apologists who should know better, still use it! It reeks of intentional dishonesty.

Science tells us about “love” and while love can’t be precisely measured or even precisely defined, it is still a very real emotion.  We know that love exists, not just because we can witness it ourselves and see it expressed, but we know what chemicals in the brain cause it.  Love is therefore clearly a function of the brain and has no external source.  If you alter the brain enough, emergent properties like love, no longer function. 

(B)  This same understanding applies to morality, hope, beauty and consciousness.  They’re all emergent properties of our brains.  Whether or not you believe scientific conclusions noting how our brain evolved to have these functions, the fact is they rely on the brain and not an external source.  The evidence is in observing a damaged or disfunctional brain, where these emergent properties are often compromised or completely missing.  

(Insights in 6 A&B by @KaBrent )

(7)  The world, universe and humans are fine tuned to fit exactly where we are.

(A) The Earth is in a perfect spot,  a perfect distance from the sun for life. Too perfect to not be intentional.  Yes Earth is one of countless planets in the universe which ended up with the right size to: hold gasses, have a liquid iron core & be the right temperature to have liquid water.  Life arose because our planet eventually provided a viable environment,  just like billions of others in the universe. This chance event is just chance, not evidence of the divine.

(B)   Without the Moon & Jupiter’s gravity we wouldn’t exist and the probability of this is too extreme to not be designed.  There could be millions & billions of viable life enabling solar system variations in existence. Further, it’s not as if moons or gas giants are rare. In fact they seem quite common, so citing intent from gods is baseless.

 (C)   The Earth environment is all too perfect for life, for it not to be designed.  Actually, life adapted to the available environment.  We (humans & life) evolved to survive on Earth.  There is plenty if evidence for this & no evidence the world was made to fit us.  Per the meme below,  you are the puddle amazed at how everything fits you,  but obviously you know full well,  that’s not how it works.

(D)   The chances that all the exact events occurred, to end up with us, is beyond astronomical.   This same absurd use of probability applies to everything.  The rock in the garden for instance.   The same mind boggling chance for us is nearly the same for the rock ending up where it did.  The probability for this event is basically nill… so yes you can see this is a useless & improper use of probability.  Our existence is from natural forces acting on nature, which always has a 1 in 1 chance.  Things existing because they didn’t follow natural laws, would actually be have that astonomical chance. 

(8)  I have personally witnessed God, experienced Him first hand.

(A)  God appeared before me. My tesimony proves god.   Saying that you recognized somebody who no human could recognize suggests a manifistation from your own brain.  Also, there are many thousands of alien abductees who claim first hand experience with aliens and because of this extreme claim,  with only their story, it is dismissed.  Why would god/jesus appearing to anyone hold more weight?  Sheer numbers?  Gods and dogma are drilled into heads through potent indoctrination.  Believers are desperate to find him.  Its not a stretch to believe the human brain could manifest such desired experiences. 

(B)  I’ve witnessed a miraculous event after praying.  And you’ve prayed thousands of times with no results… even the opposite result.  You probably pray so often that there is always a chance for a coincidence. You ignore all the failures and recall the close coincidences.   However,  lets say something amazing and even miraculous happened right after a prayer. You still saw no god doing anything.  What DID happen is you used your brain… you willed this event to happen.  It is far more apt to investigate some kind of advanced brain ability than a myth who played no apparent part.  Think about it.  

(9) 

 

 

@aBolderFaith’s answer to the Theist Challenge. 

Below is the #TheistChallenge I posed to @aBolderFaith on twitter.

@aBolderFaith’s answer:

My refutation:

Thanks for answering the challenge @aBolderFaith!  Your concern was “Your test is biased as is the way it will be scored” but unless you are saying that using logic, reason & a fair standard of evidence is biased,  it won’t be. I will attempt to explain why your submission doesn’t demonstrate a God (or gods or divinity).

Referring to your #1, you do in fact believe in myths as being real. The divinity of Jesus is a myth, as its not proven to be fact in the bible or by historians.  He is not considered an historical figure as depicted in the bible,  but rather some historians agree some ancient holy man (or men) might have been the basis for the bible stories.  Nothing even close to evidence verifies his miracles to have ever happened.  This can be tested. Not one person noted or wrote down the 3 hour eclipse for example. Not one person noted the mass resurrection in town either!  These are things any and all local historians (or anyone)  would have documented.  Its nowhere but the story of Jesus,  which makes all aspects of it VERY dubious.  There’s no good reason to believe the whole death & resurrection event even happened beyond pure fiction.  So citing the missing body as evidence is like saying Harry Potter’s missing body is evidence of his resurrection power… it happened in fiction only.

Correct, per your #2, citing mythical claims from a mythical book isn’t convincing.

Most likely, your cognitive efforts to find a godly type being was entirely internal.  You conditioned your brain to find exactly what you wanted to find. Its self brainwashing. The brain is powerful that way. It will help you complete a delusion by filling in gaps with feelings and experiences, all while letting you forget what doesn’t fit.  This is one valid explanation for what you experienced.

Another problem with your experience claim is that you’ve not verified the source of your visions & experiences.  For example, if you have a visions, feelings, experiences & see miracles… all depicting the Faerie King… Does that prove the faerie king is real?  Of course not. A vision’s contents need not depict the CAUSE of the vision, so no, these experiences (even if real) don’t demonstrate the cause you pretend that they do. Sorry.

So to sum up,  thanks for answering the challenge,  but after fairly assessing it as evidence,  it doesnt demonstrate your God myth to be real.

Atheism is still the justified position.

@dfizzzleee_’s response to Theist Challenge

In response to my formal challenge to theists on twitter, ms @dfizzzleee_ agreed to respond to the following:

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Response by @dfizzzleee_

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My Response to her submission:

Your first 2 paragraphs don’t directly address the challenge: To demonstrate that your God exist and has caused at least one event.  Your first 2 paragraphs explain very well that the Bible says it’s so, but that is the Bible writers’ claims, opinions and fictions, not a demonstration with evidence.  If you say “The Bible demonstrates itself true” then maybe you mean (1) eye-witness accounts? The later Gospels copied each other (adding variation) and the first was written (decades after Jesus supposedly died) mostly as a story being told via hearsay, not as an eye witness account. The bible notes many folks that saw Jesus and his miracles, but none are verifiable beyond bible claims. Or of the anonymous 500 seeing Jesus risen not one had their miraculous account recorded. No local historians or anyone else outside the bible narrative even noticed Jesus, or the eclipse or the dead rising from the graves. Or do you mean (2) prophecy was fulfilled, therefore it’s all true? Much prophecy in the bible is unverifiable as fulfilled beyond the Bible’s claim. Prophecy being fulfilled could simply be writers looking at the Old Testament promises and writing a story to fulfill them. Other prophecies were extremely vague or simple leaving the door open for any number of interpretations.  Or do you mean (3) miracles in the Bible prove God is real? Water to wine, walking on water and the resurrection are unverifiable stories. Even if there was a verifiable witness to such events, they become mysteries, which are not by default answered by divinity. Or do you mean (4) historic accuracy proves the bible true? An accurate recounting of people, places and events is what makes fiction seem real. There’s no reason to believe the Bible writers didn’t just insert fictional people and events into their real background. Or do you mean (5) the bible is inerrant, proving it true? The first sentence in the bible “In the beginning God created the heavens and the Earth” doesn’t match reality. In the beginning the heavens (space and time) could be argued, but the Earth wasn’t formed until another 9 billion years of stuff happening had passed.  Yup the first sentence of the Bible brings into question its validity.

Per your 3rd paragraph you cite complexity of biology as evidence of God.  Nature via evolution and natural forces is perfectly capable of creating complex processes and systems. If you wish to claim it’s not capable of this you need prove it’s not. Being in awe of complexity doesn’t allow for a fallacious leap to conclude your favorite myth, any myth or any unverifiable force was the cause. Even if we as humans couldn’t explain your biology examples, it becomes a mystery and mysteries don’t equal “god did it” by default. You would need to further demonstrate a link between the mystery and your yet unproven god.

I’m happy you escaped from substance abuse, no matter how you did it!  Yes, finding a positive guide when you are at rock bottom can get you back up.  When I was 8 my grandmother died.  I imagined my stuffed animals were suffering too, and they helped me through it by talking to me and comforting me.  The fact is any new thing to latch onto can be a crutch to help you continue.  I dropped my crutch, you didn’t.  You traversing that harsh recovery doesn’t demonstrate a god, but rather trading an old dependence for a new one.  Indeed getting clean can be done in many ways, none of which demonstrates the process to be more than an effective tool.

@dfizzzleee_’s last inquiry:

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I am clearly trying to have somebody prove God (or a god, or gods) in fact exists, not prove he doesn’t.  I challenge whether or not my own position “I don’t believe ‘gods exist’ is a fact”. I don’t think any human knows gods do or don’t exist for sure, so by showing others they have no evidence to justify their belief, I justify my own position of not believing.

I don’t say God doesn’t exist.  It just doesn’t seem like he does, since no believers have evidence to show he does. I certainly don’t and can’t hate something which isn’t there, but I do challenge the harms of religion.

** So in conclusion, you have not demonstrated that God exists or that he has been he cause of even one event.  At this point your belief that god exists remains unjustified, while not believing is both the rational and justified conclusion.

Thank you for taking the challenge!